Today's Post is About Character Archetypes
Dec. 3rd, 2013 07:04 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
netgirl_y2kSpecifically, my favourite and least-favourite character archetypes. In order to end on a high note, I'm going to start with my dislikes.
I'm not sure what the collective noun would be, but I hate what I persist in thinking of of as Sketchy as Fuck Guys, Whose Increasing Sketchiness is Ignored by Both Fanon and Canon. Particular examples I'm thinking of are Spike; a can of worms here, I know, but I have never NOPED out of a fandom so hard as I did Buffy at Seeing Red, to this day I have not watched either S7 or that season of Angel he was in. Torchwood era Jack Harkness; my favourite thing about Children of Earth is that it embraced Jack as a charming and necessary monster, but not a hero, and someone who would eventually get you killed, and my least favourite thing about Miracle Day, from the multitude of choices, was that it walked that back. And Merlin; where the show's refusal to acknowledge any of the title's character's growth, either by allowing him a magic reveal or acknowledging the increasing moral shades of grey he was living in hamstrung the entire show, both by making the Once and Future King a man canonically too stupid to dress himself and somehow failing to notice that they'd made their hero into a collaborator to religious genocide.
I hate obsessive lovers. Merlin, again (I'm sorry, dude, but you never had a chance; you're nothing but tropes I hate and ears) I mean, it's arguable whether his all-consuming obsession with Arthur was romantic or not, but either way I find it creepy and controlling and gross. River Song; a character with great potential, who with every subsequent appearance had less and less of an identity outside the Doctor, culminating in the dreadful The Wedding of River Song where she was willing to end the universe to save the Doctor. Rose Tyler is a borderline case, because it's arguable whether she was jumping between universes because she wanted the Doctor's help or because she wanted Ten, but it's notable that I love her with Nine, like her on her own or with basically any other character, and can't stand her with Ten. Willow, and her treatment of Tara in S6 of Buffy; the latter seasons of Buffy were not kind to me, which is why I maintain that the show ended after S5.
Basically anything which, if described out of context, would sound a lot like stalking, especially if it's painted as laudable or romantic, gives me the heebie-jeebies.
Okay! Tropes I do like!
Emotionally immature women! This one is gender specific because I feel like male characters are allowed to be emotionally backwards in ways that female characters still aren't. Female characters can be stoic (it plays into the Strong Female Character thing) but often not emotionally constipated and plain childish. Regina Mills is the one who comes to mind, and I'll talk more about this, because I'm writing a big post about Regina in a couple of days. It's easy to miss this at first, because she's well-dressed and poised, but she's basically four years old. She wants things her way, and she wants them now. And what's fascinating is that she is in fact powerful enough to make the world bend to her childish whims most of the time, and she's only just now having to grow up, but again I'll come back to this. Cara Mason is another good example of this. As is Morgana; problems though I have with Morgana's pitiful excuse for an arc (again, another post for another day) I did enjoy that she went violently, viciously insane, lashing out indiscriminately, because it wasn't fair. Cersei Lannister, too, if you think about how desperate she is for her daddy's approval, and Arya Stark, if you want to talk about literal vengeful eleven year olds with the power of life and death.
Villains who change and grow without ever really repenting! Regina Mills, we meet again. Melisande Shahrizai. All the fanfiction I have written about Morgana (shh, it counts.)
nice guys! (lack of capitalisation deliberate) Please step forward Samwell Tarly and Pete Lattimer. After the last episode of Elementary I was talking with some of you about Sherlock and about how nice is a word that no longer has a true definition and is often used pejoratively, but I'm using it here to mean a bone deep decency and little unthinking acts of courtesy which add up, and yeah, I'm going to include the Elementary version of Sherlock Holmes.
The Once and Future Queens! Sansa Stark; a queen at heart even if she'll never be one in name. Daenerys Targaryen; the dragon queen. Cersei Lannister; who never learns that you can't substitute ambition and natural cunning for having learned to rule at your father's knee. Asha Greyjoy; o captain my captain, and the best queen the Iron Islands never had -- and by the way I think we've just uncovered the root of my attraction to ASOIAF fandom. Guinevere; long live the queen! When I read the Kushiel's Legacy books earlier this year a lack of surprise that Ysandre and Sidonie de la Courcel were my favourites was expressed, and as much as I love Sidonie (anybody who orders her boyfriend to cut a magic tattoo out of her very skin while she's still conscious is fucking hardcore and alright by me) Ysandre is my favourite. Because like Sansa, Ysandre developed this brittle shell of self-defense in response to the betrayals of her youth; and while Ysandre's shell makes her harder than she needs to be at times, in between Sansa's brittle shell of courtesy, and inner core of ice and steel, is a layer of squishy feelings and compassion and forgiveness, which is why I love her, for being the Stark kid who can look to the future.
That was fun, wasn't it? I do like the idea of posting at least a little something every day in December, so you can leave me more prompts here.
I'm not sure what the collective noun would be, but I hate what I persist in thinking of of as Sketchy as Fuck Guys, Whose Increasing Sketchiness is Ignored by Both Fanon and Canon. Particular examples I'm thinking of are Spike; a can of worms here, I know, but I have never NOPED out of a fandom so hard as I did Buffy at Seeing Red, to this day I have not watched either S7 or that season of Angel he was in. Torchwood era Jack Harkness; my favourite thing about Children of Earth is that it embraced Jack as a charming and necessary monster, but not a hero, and someone who would eventually get you killed, and my least favourite thing about Miracle Day, from the multitude of choices, was that it walked that back. And Merlin; where the show's refusal to acknowledge any of the title's character's growth, either by allowing him a magic reveal or acknowledging the increasing moral shades of grey he was living in hamstrung the entire show, both by making the Once and Future King a man canonically too stupid to dress himself and somehow failing to notice that they'd made their hero into a collaborator to religious genocide.
I hate obsessive lovers. Merlin, again (I'm sorry, dude, but you never had a chance; you're nothing but tropes I hate and ears) I mean, it's arguable whether his all-consuming obsession with Arthur was romantic or not, but either way I find it creepy and controlling and gross. River Song; a character with great potential, who with every subsequent appearance had less and less of an identity outside the Doctor, culminating in the dreadful The Wedding of River Song where she was willing to end the universe to save the Doctor. Rose Tyler is a borderline case, because it's arguable whether she was jumping between universes because she wanted the Doctor's help or because she wanted Ten, but it's notable that I love her with Nine, like her on her own or with basically any other character, and can't stand her with Ten. Willow, and her treatment of Tara in S6 of Buffy; the latter seasons of Buffy were not kind to me, which is why I maintain that the show ended after S5.
Basically anything which, if described out of context, would sound a lot like stalking, especially if it's painted as laudable or romantic, gives me the heebie-jeebies.
Okay! Tropes I do like!
Emotionally immature women! This one is gender specific because I feel like male characters are allowed to be emotionally backwards in ways that female characters still aren't. Female characters can be stoic (it plays into the Strong Female Character thing) but often not emotionally constipated and plain childish. Regina Mills is the one who comes to mind, and I'll talk more about this, because I'm writing a big post about Regina in a couple of days. It's easy to miss this at first, because she's well-dressed and poised, but she's basically four years old. She wants things her way, and she wants them now. And what's fascinating is that she is in fact powerful enough to make the world bend to her childish whims most of the time, and she's only just now having to grow up, but again I'll come back to this. Cara Mason is another good example of this. As is Morgana; problems though I have with Morgana's pitiful excuse for an arc (again, another post for another day) I did enjoy that she went violently, viciously insane, lashing out indiscriminately, because it wasn't fair. Cersei Lannister, too, if you think about how desperate she is for her daddy's approval, and Arya Stark, if you want to talk about literal vengeful eleven year olds with the power of life and death.
Villains who change and grow without ever really repenting! Regina Mills, we meet again. Melisande Shahrizai. All the fanfiction I have written about Morgana (shh, it counts.)
nice guys! (lack of capitalisation deliberate) Please step forward Samwell Tarly and Pete Lattimer. After the last episode of Elementary I was talking with some of you about Sherlock and about how nice is a word that no longer has a true definition and is often used pejoratively, but I'm using it here to mean a bone deep decency and little unthinking acts of courtesy which add up, and yeah, I'm going to include the Elementary version of Sherlock Holmes.
The Once and Future Queens! Sansa Stark; a queen at heart even if she'll never be one in name. Daenerys Targaryen; the dragon queen. Cersei Lannister; who never learns that you can't substitute ambition and natural cunning for having learned to rule at your father's knee. Asha Greyjoy; o captain my captain, and the best queen the Iron Islands never had -- and by the way I think we've just uncovered the root of my attraction to ASOIAF fandom. Guinevere; long live the queen! When I read the Kushiel's Legacy books earlier this year a lack of surprise that Ysandre and Sidonie de la Courcel were my favourites was expressed, and as much as I love Sidonie (anybody who orders her boyfriend to cut a magic tattoo out of her very skin while she's still conscious is fucking hardcore and alright by me) Ysandre is my favourite. Because like Sansa, Ysandre developed this brittle shell of self-defense in response to the betrayals of her youth; and while Ysandre's shell makes her harder than she needs to be at times, in between Sansa's brittle shell of courtesy, and inner core of ice and steel, is a layer of squishy feelings and compassion and forgiveness, which is why I love her, for being the Stark kid who can look to the future.
That was fun, wasn't it? I do like the idea of posting at least a little something every day in December, so you can leave me more prompts here.
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Date: 2013-12-03 09:43 pm (UTC)Oh, REGINA. I like what you say about women who are allowed to be immature. So true!
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Date: 2013-12-03 10:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-03 10:05 pm (UTC)And a million yeses to all your favourite types. Emotionally immature women are the best - early Amy Pond's pretty great for that too.
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Date: 2013-12-03 10:29 pm (UTC)Ahem.
Yes! I have never loved Amy Pond more than when she was talking biting her psychologist.
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Date: 2013-12-03 10:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-03 11:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-03 11:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-03 11:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 03:58 am (UTC)with you times 1000 on River Song. Alex Kingtson could sit and read the dictionary and i'd be entertained, but what a sodding waste of a character.
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Date: 2013-12-04 05:07 pm (UTC)Alex Kingston was playing a flirtatious time-travelling archeologist. You have to work pretty damn hard to make me want that character off my screen. Just sayin'
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Date: 2013-12-04 05:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 04:20 am (UTC)This is my new favourite description of Merlin.
MORGANA'S ARC. I wrote a post about this a while back, which was basically me pining for a show that was as much about Morgana's arc as it was about Arthur and Merlin. I never forgave Gaius for the way he treated her (I kept being INCREDIBLY DISAPPOINTED when his near-death experiences stayed only near) and stayed mad in a way I never did with Merlin (whom I had to forgive and love to keep watching the show) and Uther (who was allowed to be canonically flawed and unheroic, so it was easy to let go).
I share your general feels with both Rose and River. I love you Rose, but canon, YOU SOMETIMES MAKE IT HARD.
Sansa Stark is a motherfucking badass, okay? In a completely, wonderfull feminine way and I love her for it.
I have nothing but nice things to say about and to Samwell Tarly and Pete Lattimer, who really are genuinely nice guys. Not perfect, but in that way that just makes them more real and makes their good qualities all the brighter and more grounded in reality.
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Date: 2013-12-04 05:23 pm (UTC)And Gaius, ugh - I seriously think the show's first big misstep, and one that it never entirely recovered from, was not having Gaius die at the end of of S1. They missed their Obi Wan Kenobi moment, and their chance to have Merlin learn to use the force on his own terms. Okay, I'm stretching the Star Wars metaphor to breaking point now.
Sansa Stark. Oh, God, you poor precious wolf girl. She is my favourite-favourite in a pretty damn long series of books chock full of women who hit my character and narrative kinks.
Pete Lattimer. So, I was talking about emotionally immature characters, and Pete's childishness is a huge part of why I love him. He could so easily have fallen into the trap of being a manchild, but no, he's a grown-up, and a competent and emotionally articulate one at that, he just retains this wonderful childish sense of wonder.
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Date: 2013-12-04 08:53 am (UTC)We definitely need more nice-nice guys - and I totally see why you have to qualify 'nice'.
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Date: 2013-12-04 05:39 pm (UTC)Ahem.
Somebody below suggest Good Blokes to distinguish nice-nice guys from Nice Guys, I myself like Decent Chaps.
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Date: 2013-12-04 10:58 am (UTC)LOL, yes. I could've coped with - even liked - Merlin as a dark character, twisted by obsession and secrecy, but every time it looked like the show might've been going that way it backed out and went, NO, EVERYTHING MERLIN DOES IS TOTALLY JUSTIFIED! Ugh.
Morgana's foot-stomping 'it's not fair'-thing is totally why she's my favourite (and my inner it's-not-fair-brat might explain my woobifying Morgana apologist tendencies. sorryplsdontjudgeme.)
nice guys! (lack of capitalisation deliberate)
I propose Good Blokes for decent, goodhearted men who think of others and try to Do The Right Thing without making a big production of it. "Bloke" has a sort of affable masculinity about it, down-to-Earth and non-aggressive, plus William Bloke was a Billy Bragg album, which is surely a good sign.
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Date: 2013-12-04 05:49 pm (UTC)Ahem. Sorry. I just couldn't miss the chance to say that where I wouldn't be harshing anyone's buzz.
I don't think it's necessarily Morgana apologising to notice that Merlin's (the character, the show, the fandom) treatment of her is rank hypocrisy and gendered in a weird and unpleasant way.
I like Good Blokes, may I also suggest Decent Chaps for goodhearted men of a certain age.
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Date: 2013-12-04 12:40 pm (UTC)Emotionally immature women are my FAVOURITE. :D :D :D
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Date: 2013-12-04 06:22 pm (UTC)I LIKE WOMEN WITH THE EMOTIONAL RANGE OF A TEASPOON WHO COULD KILL ME WITH THEIR EYEBROW. IT IS A VALID LIFE CHOICE.
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Date: 2013-12-04 02:00 pm (UTC)Regina is such a perfect character. She regrets nothing.
nice guys! Pete is among my favorite male characters because of this. I'm hoping that Elementary goes on to show that Sherlock is a nice person over the course of the season, because he is.
I think there's a place for obsessive lovers, but I hate when they're held up as the romantic ideal. Willow/Tara is sketchy as hell and I have a lot of issues with how Buffy fandom (and femslash fandom) hold them up as an awesome couple. After S6 it became impossible for me to like Willow as a character, especially as she faced no repercussions for what she did to Tara. She just got to have a lot of man!pain about Tara's death.
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Date: 2013-12-04 02:45 pm (UTC)I miss Warehouse 13, I want it to come back now, and is it sad I've saved most of the latter half of s4 on my DVR so that I can marathon my way through it only when I'm in time to see how they resolve the Myka cliffhanger?
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Date: 2013-12-04 07:12 pm (UTC)I've done exactly the same thing with the latter half of S4, much as I love it I will continue watching if and when I know that Myka's going to be okay.
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Date: 2013-12-06 04:27 am (UTC)I get saving it. It's only going to be a half season, so save it up while you can. I'm going to miss this show so much.
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Date: 2013-12-04 07:08 pm (UTC)Oh, Regina. I know some people have been frustrated with how long the Neverland storyline's been going on, but damn, this is a good season to be a Regina fan.
Yeah, it's the confluence of romance with stalking-like behaviours that infuriates me.
Willow/Tara was never a pairing I liked, not when it was all fluffy and curiously sexless, and not when it got all abusive and fucked-up. In my head, Tara and Anya left the hellmouth and opened, like, a competitively priced magic detective agency.
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Date: 2013-12-06 04:32 am (UTC)My mom and my sister keep complaining about the Neverland stuff and I keep wondering what they're complaining about. Because Regina. When I was catching up on the show I came to the conclusion that Regina will break my heart every 3-5 episodes, but I can't help but love her. She's one of the best characters ever.
What really bothers me about Willow/Tara is the way the fandom just ignores that it was ever fucked up and abusive (and, let's be honest, Willow at the very least sexually assaulted Tara).
In my head, Tara and Anya left the hellmouth and opened, like, a competitively priced magic detective agency.
I would read that fic. That is some good headcanon.
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Date: 2013-12-04 02:41 pm (UTC)problems though I have with Morgana's pitiful excuse for an arc (again, another post for another day)
CANNOT. WAIT. :)
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Date: 2013-12-05 07:15 pm (UTC)Yes she is! And it's so adorable that I simultaneously want to be indulgent of her tantrums while being horrified by their results (on her, as well as other people). I try not to woobie her, but it's hard when she's pouting and wanting to destroy the world/kill Snow White.
Tell us more about Cara's childishness too?
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Date: 2013-12-05 07:36 pm (UTC)Although, while I think Regina genuinely is that emotionally stupid, Cara's childishness is more... affected, and stems from a slight fear of emotions, rather than a straight-up utter failure to understand them.
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Date: 2013-12-07 07:39 pm (UTC)ITA with Merlin, too, as you know. What a waste of potential that show was. Should've killed Gaius in season 1, let Merlin tell Morgana about his magic and actually HELP her in season 2 and made Arthur the ruler we were told (time and time and time again) he was going to be. And it would've helped tremendously for the show to acknowledge how gross and wrong Merlin was most of the time. Or, you know, written him as the actual hero/good guy they kept telling us he was.
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Date: 2013-12-07 10:35 pm (UTC)Merlin never reveals his magic, so Arthur has to become an oblivious idiot who is the butt of jokes about how he can't dress himself to explain how he can possibly not have noticed. Merlin never even tries to change Camelot's attitudes towards magic (but it's okay fangirls, he'll look slightly constipated while not doing it!) so Morgana has to have a lobotomy and become obsessed with killing Arthur to usurp the throne, while randomly butchering extras and kicking puppies, because if she's Cruella de Vil then Merlin doesn't have to actually do anything, he just has to be not quite as bad.
You would think I'd be over this by now, but I'm not.
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Date: 2013-12-07 10:46 pm (UTC)I stopped watching the show because I knew that was going to happen. You could totally see it coming. Also, I could never forgive the utter shittasticness of the so-called hero throwing a fireball at someone whose back was turned and who had planned to let him live. So, honestly, I kind of understand your not getting over it, because I'm not over the show doing terrible things to Morgana. (Is it bad that I back-button from fanfic authors who don't GET that?)
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Date: 2013-12-07 11:38 pm (UTC)I cannot judge you for back-buttoning, I back-button out of 99.999% of Merlin fics I try to read, but I keep trying because I hope that one day someone will write:
a) an epic-length cohesive Morgana fic that makes sense of her actions over all five series
b) one of those elaborate novel length AUs Merlin fandom is so good at, only with femslash and no Merlin
c) a study of Merlin as a character twisted by secrecy, and obssession, and hubris
*fingers crossed*
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Date: 2013-12-07 11:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-07 11:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-07 07:44 pm (UTC)